Five Years of Tribal Broadband Bootcamps - Episode 14 of Unbuffered

Sean Gonsalves (00:15)
And we're back with another episode of Unbuffered, where technology meets power, policy, and real talk. But this is a special episode. Or maybe just an unusual one.

Sean Gonsalves (00:31)
⁓ but to paraphrase the great philosopher and musician Gil Scott-Heron, the revolution will not be televised, but an insignificant part of the revolution might be on a podcast today.

I'm Sean Gonsalves I'm the Associate Director for Communications at the Institute for Local Self-Reliance Community Broadband Networks team. And I've taken over host duties this week. How, why, you say? Well, when I introduced our guest, you'll understand. So let me get right to it. First, we've got Matt Rantanen Welcome to the program. Matt is the well, let's see, you're the board direct Board President for Waskawiwin

Waskawiwin For two decades, you were or are the Director of Technology for the Southern California Tribal Chairman's Association and its Tribal Digital Village Initiative. Two and a half. You're on like a million boards, like Tribal Broadband at GoldenStateNet, the FCC's Native Nations Broadband Task Force, the National Congress of American Indians Technology and Telecom Subcommittee, and on and on. Word on the street is he's a cyber warrior for tribal broadband.

Matthew Rantanen (01:19)
Two and a half. Two and a half. Yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (01:42)
And he co-founded the Tribal Broadband Bootcamp along with our other guest, Christopher Mitchell. Christopher Mitchell's here. He is Tribal Broadband Bootcamp co-founder. You're serving now as the Treasurer, I believe, of the on the board of Waskawiwin when attempting to. There we go. You were honored by the Public Knowledge with its Internet Protocol Award in 2021. And that's it, you know, no big deal. ⁓ technically.

Christopher Mitchell (02:00)
Attempting to.

Sean Gonsalves (02:11)
He's my boss, the Director of Community Broadband Networks Initiative, where you let me adopt the baby you birthed, Community Nets, net CommunityNetworks.org. Dare I say the nation's go-to clearinghouse that tracks community-owned networks. Sports photography is your side hustle. I don't know a lot of people know that necessarily. And of course, you're the host of this podcast. I'm Unbuffered Welcome, Chris.

Christopher Mitchell (02:37)
Yes.

No, I'm I'm so thrilled to to be here and not having had to prep.

Sean Gonsalves (02:41)
Right. Exactly, right? Like like he prepped, right, Matt Matt? ⁓ so I what I thought we would do in this show is because there's just a lot of fascinating things going on and some cool stuff coming up, which is to go into the origin story of the Tribal Broadband Bootcamps, talk a little bit about a new resource that we put out ⁓ that is a ⁓ an unbelievable census of tribal network, tribal networks across

Matthew Rantanen (02:43)
First.

Yeah, right.

Sean Gonsalves (03:12)
the nation. ⁓ talk a little bit about the bigger picture, maybe a little bit of policy and funding stuff, and then we'll talk a little bit. We'll close with ⁓ kind of what the Tribal Broadband Bootcamp model is and and kind of like what's coming up. So let's let's let's dive into the origin story. And Matt, let me just start with you. So the Tribal Broadband Bootcamp grew really as I understand it out of conversations kind of about building

Matthew Rantanen (03:28)
Excellent.

Sean Gonsalves (03:41)
⁓ w around the Internet Society's Indigenous Connectivity Summit. Take us back to that moment in what, was it like 2021? ⁓ five, five, five years ago that was talk about like what the what that spark was and who was in the room at the at the origin of of this.

Christopher Mitchell (03:50)
It was five years ago.

Matthew Rantanen (03:53)
Five years ago. Five years.

So, I mean, it it really the Genesis was really when we went to Hawaii and ⁓ had the Indigenous Connectivity Summit. We had on the Big Island, we did, you know, days in classroom, talking head, ⁓ you know, front of the room, talking through all the specifics and policy and things like that. And then the real kicker was going back over to Oahu and then going to a Puʻuhonua o Waimānalo and ⁓ the community, the sovereign community there and working with their community to

deploy a wireless network to bring Internet connectivity to their homes for the first time. So ⁓

Christopher Mitchell (04:40)
Literally

people on top of their own roofs installing the wireless system.

Matthew Rantanen (04:42)
Yeah. It was

Sean Gonsalves (04:43)
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Rantanen (04:44)
cool. I mean, I I've never been in a situation where we've taught how to do that and then didn't actually go do it while somebody shadowed us. We just handed over the tools and they went up on their own roofs and started installing stuff. ⁓ and that was sort of groundbreaking, I think, ⁓ in my mind, because it's the first time the community's ever taken over the project. And so I thought that was a shift in, you know, what I've my experiences for the last at that time, you know, like twenty years with

The Tribal Digital Village Network, where we talk to people about it, but then we go build it ourselves. ⁓ and I I think, you know, there was a lot of lessons learned in that one. ⁓ you know, how to and how not to ⁓ engage a crowd, ⁓ how to put to sleep, how to avoid how to avoid putting them to sleep. ⁓

Sean Gonsalves (05:28)
Yeah. Right. Well Well, we're gonna we're

we're we're actually gonna get into some of that actually. I've got 'cause I want I wanna draw that out a little bit, but let me let me bring in Chris real quick and ask, well let me just say like so ⁓ so the boot camp's founding philosophy is really about like creating the space where drives can share experiences with people that are really doing the work, like literally digging in the trenches.

And at the same time have like these organic conversations about like the opportunities to learn from each other. How how did you figure out, and Matt, you can join in as well, but how did you figure out, Chris and Matt, ⁓ the format that was like the right one? Like what did those early boot camps teach you about what tribal broadband practitioners actually really needed?

Christopher Mitchell (06:18)
So I feel like it's worth noting that as we were deciding to do this thing, it started off as a series of conversations. Spencer Sevilla, me, Matt, a couple other people here on their Sascha Meinrath And I don't know, I felt like it was one of those things like w we have ideas and we're like, All right, this is cool. In the back of my I'm like never gonna happen. Like who's gonna give us some money? How are we actually gonna do this thing? Like just like the legit I've never wanted an event before.

Matthew Rantanen (06:42)
Who has the time?

Yeah. Right.

Christopher Mitchell (06:43)
Yeah, like exactly. Like,

yeah, with what time? But like it was kind of a it was an idea we thought it would be really valuable. So we're playing with it. And Mark Buell at Internet Society says, This is valuable. We're gonna do it and we're gonna yeah, they're we're gonna pay for it. And so I feel like they called our bluff and ⁓ we started we started putting together like what we learned. Matt and I really got to know each other in a series of events, ⁓ many of them the same event every year, which was like run by David Eisenberg. David Eisenberg did the

Matthew Rantanen (06:54)
We'll pay for it, yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (06:59)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (07:12)
the freedom freedom to connect thanks among other events that ⁓ were just very well put together events. So Matt and I have a high high standard and we're like, we're gonna have this event. But really it was kind of like we're gonna get people together. We're gonna put them in the room and magic will happen. It was the underwear gnomes from from from South Park, but it worked. Like stage two was literally a question mark. We had some ideas what we wanted to do. We knew what we did not want to do.

Matthew Rantanen (07:12)
Freedom freedom to connect.

Christopher Mitchell (07:37)
We avoided that. And we had magical people that joined. I mean, the people that were there were the right people. And it gave us confidence to make sure that we were still we were always having the right people in the room who wanted to give, who weren't trying to build like a kingdom that they could defend and then like a bureaucracy that that they would not share with others, but people that wanted to share knowledge and build stuff together. And that is really the majority of our success, I think. And then we've imposed other things we've learned along the way.

Matthew Rantanen (07:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's ⁓ that's exactly true. I mean, we we've had some really great examples over the years of of really prime learning spaces and interactive spaces where we had the opportunity to, you know, just engage ⁓ you know, participants, get into deep conversations, have long break times where we could carry off a conversation out of the room, you know, over wonderful food, good atmosphere. So Chris and I learned really well from from those experiences.

Indigenous Connectivity Summit showed us some key things that were valuable to bring to the communities. And then it really was ⁓ just really kind of our gut on like, you know, how to order it. You know, Chris is good with an agenda, how to kind of keep the workflow going, how to make sure we build in enough time for people to engage each other and how to kind of break the ice, get people talking. And ⁓ surprisingly, that very very first event went off

Sean Gonsalves (08:50)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (09:01)
like far better than planned. And ⁓ the end result was tears of happiness and tears of I'm not doing this by myself and like hugs and and you know camaraderie that was just, you know, organic and it, you know, you couldn't have planned that part of it at all.

Sean Gonsalves (09:19)
Now before be before we get into like the like sort of the broader picture of like tribal networks across the country and the census and this resource that's new out, I want you guys to paint a bit of a picture though. And we're gonna talk a little bit more about the structure of the boot camp later in the program. But but just give for folks that may not be familiar, and I've been fortunate enough to have gone to several of the broadband boot camps, give a little synopsis of that?

Christopher Mitchell (09:42)
You got older at one of ⁓

You got older at one of

Sean Gonsalves (09:46)
Exactly. I got older at one of them. You know what I mean? It was it was a beautiful thing, you know, Esther saying happy birthday, it was beautiful. But but like, you know, you're so paint a little bit of a picture though for our audience about what happens at these boot camps. Like don't don't go into like every aspect, but just give a sort of an overview of the several days that you spend together and kind of what that looks like and and how often and where.

Matthew Rantanen (09:53)
Yeah, that was cool.

I'll I'll just go quick and then you can fill in, Chris. I one of the one of the most obvious things that happens is everybody shows up and goes, Wait a minute, this isn't a conference. And it's like, I'm not experienced in this space. This is truly a boot camp. We're on the ground, we're in the dirt, we're in a tent, it's hot or it's cold and you know, we're having to experience the elements. ⁓ this is a different atmosphere than I'm used to learning in and and you know, it it turns on a different sense of a ⁓

of responsibility, I think, within people that are like, wow, I'm in a new environment. I've I better be paying attention and and figure out what's going on. It it's ⁓ it's kind of cool. So we bring them into an environment ⁓ and and then engage them full blast all day, provide them tons of snacks and, you know, make sure they're happy and ⁓ you know, provide good content and then just, you know, enforce the the engagement with each other and and ⁓ organically we just get this great result.

Sean Gonsalves (10:54)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (11:09)
Yeah, because of partners like Merit and now with several of the tribes that have long operated networks, and I I'm always afraid of forgetting some, but like folks like Mohawk, Tohono O’odham, Hoopa Valley. ⁓ there's ⁓ many tribes that have helped out in Gila River, ⁓ that have contributed their own like ⁓ their people, personnel, ⁓ equipment. So we actually have a working fiber network wherever we are. That might be in a casino ballroom if we're on reservation.

Sean Gonsalves (11:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christopher Mitchell (11:39)
It might

be in a community center on reservation. ⁓ about I don't know, between a third and a f and a half of them have been at Matt's ranch, where we have a broadband playground now that ⁓ is, I mean, literally have, I don't know, five or six different legs of fiber, quarter mile of conduit and more than that now, even ⁓ buried. We have an aerial ⁓ area that the Anza Electric has put in utility poles, showed us how that works, wireless tower, ⁓

Sean Gonsalves (11:41)
Mm-hmm.

I see.

Matthew Rantanen (11:57)
Yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (12:02)
Right. Right.

Christopher Mitchell (12:07)
All kinds of things that are the real world with real tools and we build real networks that really transmit data. Calix has been a partner that has allowed us to have an E7, which is like the brains of a passive optical network. And so we have a splitter. We can literally show people how to turn on devices, turn them off, and manage them. we do all that sort of stuff. We cut a live network and then have technicians splice it back together. but then we also go into digital equity with Davida.

And Davida making sure that we're talking about what happens when the network is lit up or when the wireless is working, making sure that people, how do they get devices? How do they get training? Where do they go to have their questions answered and things like that? So trying to bring together people that are doing this work to meet other people. And now the people who are attending, the last thing I'll say is like some of them are like a lawyer from the tribe, tribal leadership, people that are working in outside plant, people that are working on the phones on the inside, administrators.

Sean Gonsalves (12:35)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Christopher Mitchell (13:04)
you know, people from the library system or the education system, ⁓ people that are just trying to figure out how does all this come together and what do I need to know to make sure that the people on my reservation or, you know, in the region that I'm in are well connected.

Sean Gonsalves (13:17)
Right, right. I mean my impression, you know, having been to a few is that, you know, kind of the Matt's point about it not being like, this isn't like a conference ⁓ is like the how hands on it is. It's it's it's incredibly hands on. I mean, just the times that I was there, I mean like doing crimping and ⁓ and and splicing and and and having different stations where you're doing these kind of things. And then, you know, even at one point at Matt's was I guess about a year or so ago, you know, we rolled out the tractor and

Christopher Mitchell (13:36)
Splicing. That's the thing that you know.

Sean Gonsalves (13:47)
you know, cut a fiber line and then folks had to fix it. I mean, so it's super it's super hands on. And I thought also, Matt, you kind of undersold the snacks. Cause I would say that it's a little bit more of the snacks.

Matthew Rantanen (13:48)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Christopher Mitchell (13:59)
Snacks and and

l any manner of hydration. We want people to stay hydrated.

Sean Gonsalves (14:03)
Yeah,

Matthew Rantanen (14:03)
Yeah. And we do

Sean Gonsalves (14:03)
exactly, exactly. So

Matthew Rantanen (14:04)
c we do cater ⁓ with re we respon we responsibly cater it. put it that way.

Sean Gonsalves (14:09)
That's right.

Christopher Mitchell (14:11)
Yeah, when we're

on res, we always try to make sure that like it's local caterers. We try to make sure the money's staying local. When we're at Matt's, we've had some l caterers that were local. They've actually moved away, but they come back to keep catering this event. They enjoy it. We love it. And so we have great folks. And then, you know, Sarah, ⁓ there on the ranch is is often running to pick up our lunches. Cause when you're in the middle of the desert, it's not easy to find lunch, it turns out.

Sean Gonsalves (14:34)
You know, and the and and I would say you, you know, you're you'll you'll be full and and and your palate will be pleased. ⁓ now running parallel to these Tribal Broadband Bootcamps is really a ⁓ a movement across Indian country to expand Internet connectivity. And that's so I wanna transition a little bit and Chris, I'm gonna come to you on this ⁓ census that.

Matthew Rantanen (14:34)
Yeah.

Indeed.

Sean Gonsalves (15:00)
Jessica, our ⁓ senior researcher has put together, it's incredible. ⁓ tell I mean, so we've got this updated 2020 2026 census of tribal internetwork ⁓ Internet networks. And for me, the headline is sort of like finding that like the number of active networks has doubled since 2020. I mean, that's amazing. ⁓ what

What do you think is driving that surge in a as you talk a little bit about the about the census and and yeah, what do you think is driving that surge as you talk a little bit about the census?

Christopher Mitchell (15:35)
Well, I do want to say this this is remarkable. Calling it a census undersells it. This is a one document long, beautiful, like beautifully presented explanation of what's happened in Indian country around Internet access for the past 30 years. And so, and then it ends with this census. So and it builds on the work started by H ⁓ H. Trostle for people who remember, who worked in our team for a long time and continues to do good research. So

Sean Gonsalves (15:40)
It does.

Christopher Mitchell (16:03)
⁓ this is this is such a great culmination of this all. So I mean I think

Sean Gonsalves (16:07)
And and pro and pr and probably

also helps build it also builds on we you shouldn't we should probably mention Revite who's who who did some work in this area as well.

Christopher Mitchell (16:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

yeah. Yeah. But in the in the interim between Jess and H was Revati Prasad who who did really great work is now doing ⁓ work at ⁓ Benton. Thank you. Just ⁓ struggling. It's Friday afternoon as we're recording this. so but the thing that I I'll tell you that I'll I'll never forget is that ⁓ there is a lot of inspiration in Indian country. There's just a lot of folks who are recognizing that they don't need to wait for some person ⁓ off res to come do this.

Matthew Rantanen (16:28)
It is indeed.

Sean Gonsalves (16:42)
Yeah. ⁓

Christopher Mitchell (16:44)
And they

don't need to wait for AT&T. They don't need to wait for the local wireless guy who who may not be familiar with the local rules, regulations, and culture. they can do it and they can take a major step toward digital sovereignty by doing it. There's so many good examples now. I think that's what's creating it. It's the energy on the res that is pushing this and leading it. Now, the federal government has also helped. And so I'll just say that quick. the federal government just has documented how it has done some things that are boneheaded and step back here and there.

Sean Gonsalves (17:10)
Yep.

Christopher Mitchell (17:13)
But it's really done

some great things in terms of making money available directly to the reservation, to the tribal government, not ex forcing them to go through them. It's made sure that the sovereignty is recognized. And so, ⁓ you know, there's a variety of forces that are acting together on it, is what I'd say. But, you know, Matt's lived it for twenty five years, so

Matthew Rantanen (17:32)
Yeah. And so I reviewed the I reviewed the census this morning and it's a great it's a great document. you know, I think it's really gonna help folks better understand what's happening in Indian country, specifically in regions and you know, areas that that they want to know more about. ⁓ you know, and and by the numbers that I was reading, it looks like we're actively headed towards two hundred networks out of the five hundred and seventy-six nations, which is you know, a sort of a monumental ⁓ event. And

Sean Gonsalves (17:33)
Right.

Right. Right.

Matthew Rantanen (18:01)
You know, the the federal government has in injected some dollars ⁓ to the tune of about three billion, give or take. And ⁓ and you know, through the work at the National Congress of American Indians that that I've done, that Jeffrey Blackwell has done, ⁓ through the Tech and Telecom subcommittee there, the advocacy we've done in in that space, along with other partners throughout Indian country to sort of force the hand of the government to provide d dollars directly in the hands of the tribes.

Sean Gonsalves (18:31)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (18:31)
rather

than going to a state, rather than going to a carrier, go directly to the tribes who know how to serve the tribe best. So I think ⁓ you know, it's not too far far back in history yet that we can't also mention COVID where a lot of the folks that worked off of reservation at a job when COVID hit and everybody was at home restricted, ⁓ they went home and lost their job because they didn't have Internet.

to be able to continue their work telecommuting. ⁓ those those coworkers that they had that went to their suburb neighborhood that had Internet kept their jobs. So it was a real eye opener. ⁓ we already knew we didn't have Internet in in reservation space, but it was a real eye opener that like there was yet another, you know, big hit to be taken ⁓ by not having that in place. So it was it was very much a catalyst to to get things moving. A lot of champions showed up.

Sean Gonsalves (19:28)
Mm.

Matthew Rantanen (19:29)
during that timeline within the communities that embraced broadband and sort of drove it internally at each of the reservations, drove it up through the government of the tribe and ⁓ forced it to be a priority.

Sean Gonsalves (19:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Now it I was gonna ask you actually like what what does like this pipeline like say tell us about like where tribal broadband is heading like over the next five years, but you pointed at it. I mean 200 networks is is is is significant. ⁓ like with 90 active, there's like fifty more in like like with funding to build, and then there's sixty or so I think about in the prep in the prospective stages. So now the census

Matthew Rantanen (20:02)
Looking. Yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (20:07)
frames tribal broadband and I want you guys to talk about this not just kind of like as like an infrastructure story but as an as a real exercise in network sovereignty. So like what does that mean in practice? Like how does it shape the way the boot and I should say what does it what does it mean in practice and how does it shape the way the boot camps are designed?

Matthew Rantanen (20:28)
So ⁓ you know, there's a there's a big movement, ⁓ especially in data sovereignty, right? So the concern of others getting access to ⁓ proprietary and sovereign data, like enrollment records, financial records of tribes, different information like that. And ⁓ and so, you know, the focus initially was on data, but the reality is ⁓ the ownership and operation of the system that moves your data around.

from point to point where it houses your where you house your data, where that lives, who controls it. And then the rights that data has when it is from a sovereign nation. ⁓ The argument is made that it does not matter if data from a tribe lives on an Amazon AWS server. It should have inherent sovereign rights because it is sovereign. Remember the old movies in like the 80s and 90s where they were like, I have diplomatic immunity. My diplomatic pouch cannot be touched.

Sean Gonsalves (21:24)
Mm.

Mm. Mm. That's a good analogy. Mm-hmm.

Matthew Rantanen (21:26)
is very similar to sovereign data, right? That's the that

is the the you know the correlation there. And so tribes are make trying to make sure that there is language, there is legal precedent, there is structure to be able to say that sovereign data is sovereign data does not matter where it lives. It it retains that ⁓ that authority and ⁓ and then controlling those networks that move that data around, ⁓ that encrypt that data, that house that data, ⁓ gives you ⁓ peace of mind and as well as control.

Of the sovereignty.

Sean Gonsalves (21:56)
Now, Chris, you want to like weigh in on kind of like the network sovereignty and what and and and and and specifically how does how does that inform the boot camps and how they're designed?

Christopher Mitchell (22:05)
Yeah, I this is something that I'm still learning a lot about. I mean, I I've been I've been admiring the work that Matt had done for a long time. I'd have been admiring the work that others had done. Valerie Fasthorse, it took me five years to get an interview with her finally. Matt helped out with that finally, you know, like ⁓ but I I still I'm nowhere near an expert on on Indian country. And ⁓ the way that I think about and I think it's useful to note that

We try to think about this very clearly, not just in terms of the boot camps, but also this wider question because Matt and a few other people, ⁓ myself, and Todd Hoskins created ⁓ Waskawiwin. Now Matt and Todd did all the hard work. ⁓ but Matt, I think you just wanna briefly describe what Waskawiwin is because it plays into my answer.

Matthew Rantanen (22:48)
Sure, Waskawiwin, ⁓ the word is Cree, which is I I am a descendant of, and it is ⁓ the act of being active or in motion, which we are very much active and in motion in this space. I I can't tell you how many decades I sat around listening to people talking about the problem and not building solutions, right? So we're about building solutions, solving the problem, not talking about the problem. So ⁓ Waskawiwin was created to really ⁓

give a parent umbrella to the boot camps and other efforts that we'll be migrating into in the future. ⁓ a funding mechanism, ⁓ a nonprofit that allows us to align with with ⁓ you know foundations and things like that. And that the mission is aligned with the products that we are producing. Rather than getting fiscal sponsor here, fiscal sponsor there, where you're aligned for a short period of time and then

You stray and you maybe are very good at bringing in money. The parents not good at bringing in money, then you have issues. I mean, there's a lot of things like that that just complications where, you know what, let's just do a nonprofit that is aligned with this mission and let's just go with it.

Sean Gonsalves (23:55)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (23:55)
Yeah, and

we we wouldn't be here without the work of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, you know, myself, my time. ⁓ I did a lot of it in personal time, but also some of it on ILSR's time. And ⁓ and so it's important, but it was important to us that ILSR didn't own it and that it is rooted in Indian country on a board that is mostly made up of enrolled members of tribes. And so to get back to your question, ⁓ which I don't remember the question as well as I remember the answer, but this question of like, you know, like what are we doing here?

Sean Gonsalves (24:01)
Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Right.

Christopher Mitchell (24:22)
Like I do feel like for me it is this and I I remember talking with Mikhail Sundust about this at Tohono O’odham ⁓ when we were down there ⁓ for for them hosting an event is that like I think there's this there's a sense that like ⁓ that native peoples are not technologically savvy. And that's crap. Like, I mean, like whether it's irrigation is an obvious one, but I mean if anything, native peoples have proven that for thousands of years they've used technology appropriately in their area sustainably. That's why they're still there.

And so, ⁓ and so what do I think about? I think that like as this new information technology kind of moves across planet Earth and is developed by in different ways, the goal is is that these sovereign nations are able to in interact with technology on their terms and they don't have terms imposed on them. And that's how I kind of think about it, you know, in terms of of how we structure what we're doing and and everything else, is that we have this idea that that everyone has something to learn, everyone has something to teach.

Matthew Rantanen (24:52)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (25:21)
And so it's really fundamentally about making sure that people are sharing tools that they've figured out and discovering new tools together and just sharing that knowledge at our events.

Matthew Rantanen (25:31)
A quick quick correction or course correct. Mikhail Sundas, a Gila River Indian Community member, ⁓ was attend attending at Tahana Autumn but then also did host us at the Gila River Indian community.

Sean Gonsalves (25:34)
Mm. Feel a river.

That's right. I was that

that that was one of the boot camps that I wa that that I attended. It was amazing. and the work that they and and just, you know, and a and of course even their network is I I think, at least at that time, was getting ready to or had been starting to serve folks outside of the reservation as well. I mean, so

Christopher Mitchell (25:58)
Yeah,

G R T I's done a a wonderful job, the Gila River folks. ⁓ they're that technology is great and they've put a lot of money into digital equity to make sure people can really use it, get their questions answered. It's a real model.

Sean Gonsalves (26:08)
Now one what one of the things that kind of caught my eye about with the census was like it things like highlighting the is it the Morongo band of mission Indians ⁓ as an example of like why this work is so important. I mean, waiting eight years for I think it was Verizon to like bring service to the you know the the reservation even after they had gotten funding to do it, like how can you guys kind of talk to like how common that is and and what that what and what that tells us about why community ownership matters?

Matthew Rantanen (26:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well it's really unf

Yeah, it's and it's really unfortunate in that case. They're they're just they border Interstate ten. So from Los Angeles to Phoenix, they border one of the biggest corridors in, you know, in the Southern California to, you know, to the southern states, which has fiber running down it. So it's not like there was a you know, no resources there to actually deploy. It was just in to get engaged with a carrier, an ISP that would actually serve their community because

Sean Gonsalves (26:44)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (27:06)
⁓ in in every situation, ⁓ the tribe does not have enough homes to justify building infrastructure to the region. ⁓ that they would never recover the the middle mile cost ⁓ in the long run ⁓ to build to you know the number of homes that are on each reservation. So there has to be some sort of subsidy or ⁓ offset to that upfront cost to get them there. In the case of Morongo, they were right next to the freeway.

Sean Gonsalves (27:12)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Matthew Rantanen (27:36)
where the assets were. So in that case, it's really like the the ISP or the carrier of choice in the in the region just chooses not to serve them. ⁓ and it, you know, it took a long time and probably some political pressure to get to get that to happen.

Christopher Mitchell (27:52)
Yeah. And I would say that you asked how often that happens. I mean, I would say there's a lot of different scenarios that we see. And in some cases, good relationships. I mean, I I feel like the ones that are really bad relationships with outside telecom carriers are the ones that you sort of think about more. But like there's certainly cases of like whether it's a local or a national telecom company that's based off reservation. It's a hard business. And and for them, their perspective is like they could they're gonna make their money regardless of whether the reservation is served.

Sean Gonsalves (27:52)
No Go ahead, Chris.

It is.

Right. Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (28:22)
And they don't want to deal with with interacting with a new set of laws and and different culture and having respect for tribal leadership. And and so, you know, and that's not that's not true of everyone, but like this is why we've seen this movement for the tribes to serve themselves. Because in too many cases, it is not ⁓ it's not really realistic to think that you're gonna get great service ⁓ from someone who's not rooted in that community.

Sean Gonsalves (28:47)
Yeah, and when I hear when I hear you talk about good relations and Matt mentioned about the middle mile, I mean I think about and I don't wanna you know, I don't know all of the details like like you do, and certainly not like Hooper Valley, but it seems like that's kind of an example of where they're working with the state on some middle mile stuff, ⁓ and and and really is like a first of its kind kind of arrangement.

Matthew Rantanen (28:47)
That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's first in history that a tribe's building infrastructure for the state of California. ⁓ the Hoopa Valley tribe, the Yurok tribe, the Chumash tribe, the Karuk tribe, and the Tallawadini Nation are all building ⁓ sections of the infrastructure for the ⁓ over 8,000 miles of middle mile that California is currently building. So they're joint build partners with the state of California. ⁓ and you know, this is I think this might be the future. This might be the future in that that tribes become

Or they have grown businesses on their reservations to the point where they are scalable to go off reservation in a multitude of capacities, right? Whether that is to serve last mile down the road or that is to build middle mile infrastructure for the state that they happen to be in. ⁓ you know, there's a a variety of things that now they are becoming the experts, specifically in their region, managing operations and maintenance on those routes because they are ⁓ local, regionally placed with expertise.

I mean there's a variety of things that are happening now that are that we've not seen ever.

Sean Gonsalves (30:11)
Now, just l let's just spend just a couple of quick minutes before we talk a little bit more specifically about the boot camp model, but just just to tease out a couple of the policy and funding stuff that's kind of a part of all of this matrix here, which is so as I understand it, so the Tribal Broadband Connectivity Program is sort of like, you know, one of the the the central funding federal funding programs that are ⁓ you know helping tribes to build out now.

The demand though was like way higher than the needs. I mean, there's I think there were what, like nine billion dollars of like applications, but there's only two billion bucks in the pot. So there's you know

Christopher Mitchell (30:47)
Well, yeah,

that and that's been spent at this point. I mean, there's some money left over. It's deeply frustrating that actually the Trump administration pulled the rug out from several tribes that have been told, not just ones that have been working toward receiving the money, but they have been told they had received the grant after putting in tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars, tens, hundreds of hours of work. And ⁓ that money's just sitting there as we wait for the Trump administration to quote unquote streamline it, which ⁓ I don't know, a lot of us don't really expect.

Sean Gonsalves (30:55)
Yeah. That's what I wanted you to talk about.

Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (31:17)
any real benefit. I we expect the rules to change in ways that favor DC, not or in DC and and the friends of the Trump administration, not in ways that will benefit the tribes. But most of that money, the two billion, which turned into three billion, ⁓ that was spent ⁓ and is like Hoopa Valley, for instance, is nearly done with their build with that money. So that is in the past tense for most of for a lot of it. I don't know if it's most.

Sean Gonsalves (31:40)
And Chris, what would you say like I mean like give like given the current like political environment, ⁓ how realistic would you say it is that, you know, or that that that funding can be retained and like like what are like the levers that advocates like have?

Christopher Mitchell (31:54)
I'm

deeply concerned that we will see this NTIA when it comes to the BEAD dollars. There's a dynamic that we have not written about because we're still trying to like actually figure out what the what all the evidence is, but it seems like there's a dynamic in which well, we do know that many of the highest cost locations to build to are on reservation, right? For reasons that we've talked about, high middle mile costs, very rural area, not a population density that can support the network on its own necessarily over time.

Sean Gonsalves (32:04)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Mitchell (32:23)
And the the Trump administration wants to turn all of that into satellite connections. Now tribes being sovereign have a say in this and what technology is used on their land and they've been resistant. And I am I think a lot of us are afraid that the money will just go away rather than being used in the way that the tribal nation wants.

Sean Gonsalves (32:42)
Right, right.

Matthew Rantanen (32:43)
Yeah, we're concerned.

We're concerned that the the previous iterations of this funding was able to build out ⁓ you know, infrastructure and, you know, underground fiber, aerial fiber, and and a combination of wireless and things. And this is all being pushed towards you know, low Earth orbit satellite, which is not a solution for all. ⁓ and it is ⁓ probably gonna go away from actually building serious like infrastructure for the future. So speculation, but

Speculation with some information from some, you know, insiders and some people that have been in the space and then are very worried as as well.

Sean Gonsalves (33:20)
Now let me just as a little quick just quick little side note. So 'cause I know like it in the census it talks about how like the twenty twenty two E Rate rule change that like extended eligibility for like tribal libraries and what have you. Like I know that was a big deal for the Pueblo of Jemez, I think ⁓ but like you were part of that fight, Matt. ⁓ like so like just talk a little bit about what it took to get there and like what it means for communities on the ground.

Matthew Rantanen (33:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (33:46)
Matt's hair was measurably shorter when you started when you started this fight.

Matthew Rantanen (33:46)
Yeah, and and

Sean Gonsalves (33:49)
Ha ha ha.

Matthew Rantanen (33:49)
way less gray. ⁓ so yeah, I actually, so ⁓ full disclosure, I'm a recovering graphic designer and I created a brochure, and the title of the do brochure was dot dot dot and tribal communities. In two thousand and two, I went to Washington, DC with my then counterpart Michael Peralta, and we went to all of our senators, all of our congresspersons for California, and then the Federal Communications Commission and said,

Sean Gonsalves (34:04)
Mm.

Matthew Rantanen (34:16)
There's no language that allows tribes to to you know self-designate or or be a part of the E-Ray program. and why not? And tribal communities. That's a simple change. Their concern was that if they opened up the rulemaking during the administration we were then in there, which was a Bush president, ⁓ we would lose the program entirely. So we became an exception to the rule. And the exception to the rule was you had to make a relationship with your state librarian.

The state librarian had to identify that your libraries were eligible for LSTA funding, library sciences, technology. And then ⁓ that gave you the ability to apply for E-Rate. So we were awarded the E-Rate funding. We taught as many tribes as possible how to work with their tribal or their state librarian to get that letter of authenticity. ⁓ and then to navigate a workaround to be able to get E-Rate funding. And a lot of tribes were able to.

navigate and e get E-rate funding. So fast forward twenty-one years or twenty and a half years later, we finally have the rulemaking that allows tribes to self-designate their entities.

Sean Gonsalves (35:24)
And as I as I understand it, and Chris, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it I that was that was crucial, wasn't it, for the Pueblo of Jemez? I mean, I think that was what, you know, helped build their backbone and really and because they were smart enough to know what they were doing, ⁓ they were able to use you know, sort of parlay that into helping them set up for their fiber to the home project that they're ⁓

Christopher Mitchell (35:44)
Yeah, I mean that was my understanding. Matt Matt was there for a lot more of it than I was, but ⁓ many Pueblos working together at different entities to to make sure they were connecting those facilities that were that were eligible for E-Rate, and then during that construction project to put an extra fiber on their dime that the that the the Pueblos paid for themselves that could then be used for other uses that are not tied into E-Rate. that's a real nice feature of that program. And so that was essential to

Sean Gonsalves (36:05)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Mitchell (36:13)
making the cost of now connecting everyone ⁓ at Jemez and many other Pueblos to be affordable. So ⁓ you know, it still took a lot of work. And I mean, I just I was literally just talking ⁓ with Ange at Jemez this week and as they're going through final paperwork on some of the other things. And so, you know, for a lot of these programs, it's like, we could connect this number of people, but there's still an issue, right? There's still a challenge. And then once the network is available to everyone, all right, well, do we have devices for everyone? And do we have the training?

Matthew Rantanen (36:19)
Yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (36:29)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (36:42)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (36:43)
And in Jemez, they have their training that they've developed in Towa, their own language, which is ⁓ which is really special that they've gone so far. And it really helps with their adoption rates because they can speak with elders without having to to s switch over to English and and things like that.

Sean Gonsalves (36:58)
Now ha Jemez is so fresh in my mind because the last boot camp that I went to at Matt at Matt's ranch was when they were a prominent part of that. And ⁓ got a chance to, you know, listen, just just it's just an incredible group group of people. ⁓ and the and the workforce training that they're doing. I mean, it's just amazing. Ange and and and and her whole crew of folks that she brought there was amazing. So let's let's go back before we get out of here. Let's just go back to the boot camp for a minute because

Now, this is something that I should know the answer to, but I was probably busy like stuffing my face with snacks to know the answer to this. But so the boot camp covers both wireless and fiber optic ⁓ training. And every event is adjusted to like the experiences of the of the hosting tribe and kind of like the in you know the interest of the participants. How do you figure out what each cohort needs for that?

Matthew Rantanen (37:39)
Yes.

That's a great question. so some of it's known ahead ⁓ just from the experiences that I have working with their communities or working around the advocacy that I've done with some of those tribes. Some of it we get on an intake form ⁓ when they apply to ⁓ show interest in the boot camp and want to attend the boot camp. And then ⁓ a lot of times, and this is Chris's favorite thing, is the survey.

Every night we have a survey and we will actually adjust on the fly from Monday night to Tuesday night to to Wednesday. And we will change programming or add, you know, add content or add time to be able to drill deeper into a subject or to pull away from wireless and focus on fiber because the community we're in is really fiber focused and most of the attendees are really fiber focused. we can switch gears like that. And so Chris has figured out how to.

Sean Gonsalves (38:21)
yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (38:49)
you know, have a flexible enough ⁓ agenda schedule to be able to tweak as we move. Yeah.

Sean Gonsalves (38:54)
Right. Now I would

Christopher Mitchell (38:55)
I mean

Sean Gonsalves (38:55)
say

Christopher Mitchell (38:56)
there's

Sean Gonsalves (38:56)
that if you look up if you look up the word iterative in the dictionary, there's a picture of Chris, ⁓ right right next to or right under the definition Chris.

Christopher Mitchell (39:02)
You know, I'll just say that's

that's nicer than the than my picture showing up under con man, which I feel like like there's a lot of this that's just confidence, which is but I I do think that like some of this is like certainly we have a lot of meetings, and I one of the reasons we're able to do this is because my brain is broken in a couple of ways. One is what I'm always like, we could probably work this out. It'll take like four meetings and we'll have this event, it'll be great.

Matthew Rantanen (39:08)
Right.

There's another couple of words you show up next there too.

Sean Gonsalves (39:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (39:30)
You know, it's 12 meetings later, it's like, wait, we still haven't figured this other thing out. We never even thought about this thing. You learn a lot about the communities. Like, I mean, we just we were up in Alaska for the first time in Bristol Bay, working with the Bristol Bay Native Association and learn just so much in just meetings with them about what it's like up there, talking with a local ISP. So you start to get a sense of that sort of a thing. But there's this confidence angle, which is just that like you know, if you have a group of people that are together, there's a peer pressure.

Matthew Rantanen (39:34)
Yeah, right.

Sean Gonsalves (39:35)
Yeah.

What so

Mm-hmm.

Christopher Mitchell (39:58)
And

there's a sense like if you have a person in the front of the room that is like, it makes sense to transition from this topic to the next topic and it makes sense to like, you know, to steer the conversation in this direction and like we're gonna run this event, switching among these stations this way. I think it goes differently if you have a person that doesn't have confidence. And I'm up there and I'm like, I'm like, this works, we do it this way. And people are like, Okay, I guess it works. And I'm just in in my head, I'm freaking out, you know, like hoping it all holds together.

Sean Gonsalves (40:03)
Right.

So so so

so to like like just to elaborate a little bit and like so j just to ask the what what would you say is like surprise you the most about what people ⁓ about what people come in well like wanting to learn?

Christopher Mitchell (40:35)
You know Yeah, go ahead.

Matthew Rantanen (40:36)
I got an example. Like

going back to Jemez and and Ange and and her team, they actually were very concerned that they had a a consultant ⁓ coach them on what equipment to purchase for fiber splicing to go out and do their whole entire network, right? And so they had purchased all this equipment, sight unseen, based on a recommendation. That person that recommended isn't is not an expert in it, other than you know, giving advice, doesn't know how to operate the gear.

Sean Gonsalves (40:49)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (41:05)
And they didn't know how to operate their own gear. So we told them to bring it to the boot camp. And so they brought all their gear to the boot camp. And in the cycle of one boot camp, they were able to learn their fiber splicing equipment, get it dialed into the point where they are now teaching that. ⁓ so that that was a big kind of a shift ⁓ in, you know, and we were like, Well, I guess we can, yeah, I guess we can be the people to show you how to use your gear.

⁓ and then, you know, we're gonna take advantage of you once you learn it 'cause, you know, you can teach others. So

Sean Gonsalves (41:37)
So let l let's go Chris, I I'm gonna you you can probably wrap your answer into this because ⁓ bring this thing in for a landing here in a few moments here, but kind of like just thinking about like looking ahead, and I was interested to to you, Chris, from ILSR's vantage point, tracking community broadband networks across the country, what makes the tribal broadband movement, for lack of a better term, distinct from other community broadband efforts, would you say?

Christopher Mitchell (42:06)
I think the challenges that it faces, I mean, you know, it's not easy for a municipality, let's just say like a city in Iowa to decide to build a network, but there's a process, there's ⁓ you know, a stability, ⁓ there's a sense of how to approach capital markets because they have authority to bond. And then you take that into ⁓ in the Indian country where ⁓ there's usually less ⁓ in terms of capital available.

they're not able to borrow because because the land is held in trust by the federal government. They can't just access the same sort of financial instruments that a municipality can. ⁓ you have potential changes in leadership that come with any community where there's a lot of hardship and ⁓ challenges. Things can so you have the you have local politics plus the local politics potentially of of communities under hardship. and so you just have additional challenges. But on the other hand, you have the sense of people are used to like

Sean Gonsalves (42:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (43:01)
figuring things out and they're not as intimidated by it to be like, okay, I gotta figure out how this thing works. I gotta, you know, we gotta make it work. We're gonna, we're gonna do that. you know. and, you know, I I don't wanna I always hate feeling like I'm I'm going too Pollyanni-ish on this, but like there are local politics that are crushing. You know, we've seen corruption in cities, seen corruption in tribal governments, seen sexism, you know, like it's just

Sean Gonsalves (43:26)
Mm.

Christopher Mitchell (43:26)
You

see it, you see it in industry, you see it in government, you see it in the reservation. Like it's just it's frustrating. And it it but it's a reminder that like we're all deeply flawed as human beings, I feel like, and just you see that across as you work. And it does actually destroy terrier stereotypes the more you work with different groups of folks.

Sean Gonsalves (43:37)
Yeah.

And what do you think? Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (43:44)
I'd say we well, just give me one second, Sean. I we

have a culture at the boot camps that tries to break down some of that ⁓ you know, historical ⁓ you know, stereotypical things that happen. So the sexism thing is doesn't exist in our boot camps. it's a safe environment for anyone at any level.

Christopher Mitchell (44:01)
Yeah, let me just I mean, just to be clear, like Matt

and I are two guys talking to another guy, being like, Yeah, we don't have any sexism. Like, like we Matt and I go out of our way. This is incredibly important to us to make it clear that we want to hear about any of this. And if they don't want to tell us, there are other people, they can talk to to Jess, you know, like there's a number of women that would be available. There's you know, we try to make sure they could they could send a text, you know, like and and and I feel confident in saying that this is one of the most egalitarian experiences one can experience.

Sean Gonsalves (44:16)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Christopher Mitchell (44:30)
For people who can't see, Matt is incredibly physically intimidating. And Matt and I are both the kind of people that like if we're confronted with a threat, we tend to like accelerate rather than decelerate. And so we have not had any issues. Like people that would like to create a problem just decide they'd rather create a problem somewhere else if they come across us. And it's been nice.

Matthew Rantanen (44:49)
That's right.

But it's a it's also a level of like you know ⁓ expertise too. So there's and Chris says this a lot about the boot camps, and and I continue to try to remember this as I'm talking about them without him, and that is it is a confidence builder. These boot camps are confidence building, so you're coming in with a knowledge level that may be very, very low, and you're leaving maybe not with the expert level com ⁓ you know, ⁓ grip on everything, but you have a confidence that you can understand and and build more to what you're doing.

⁓ it's it's raised your level of of aptitude and ⁓ sort of ⁓ engagement. And and that's another part of the safe environment that we're speaking of is that like there is no dumb question, there is no you know, pecking order, there is no like, he's an expert. I don't want, you know, he's he knows too much kind of a thing. There's none of that. It's everything is collaborative and everybody's working together and it's very supportive.

Sean Gonsalves (45:43)
Well let's ⁓ I think close it by talking about what's coming up. It's just funny, I'm just thinking about Chris saying Matt's kind of a physically intimidating person. It's almost it's almost like reminds me of Chewbacca or something like that. I know. Anyway,

Matthew Rantanen (45:51)
Yes, maybe. Maybe.

Christopher Mitchell (45:57)
Maybe the Matt's right. Yeah, he just looked at him.

Matthew Rantanen (46:00)
Yeah, I

I can I we are on a podcast where I can show you who's that? ⁓

Sean Gonsalves (46:04)
⁓ there it is.

There it is. We won't ask you to make the the the Chewbacca sound, but they'll have to go to a broadband boot camp to find to hear it live and in person. Now, ⁓ so let's just close out with so the next Tribal Broadband Bootcamp is coming up, I think what, ju the week of June twenty second. ⁓ while you're there, exactly. And it's and it's a big one. It's the five year anniversary event, which means that it's back at

Matthew Rantanen (46:10)
That is that is my ultra ego.

Exactly.

Christopher Mitchell (46:24)
I think this might actually literally be airing while we are there.

Sean Gonsalves (46:34)
RantanenTown Ranch And even if I told listeners where it was in the county in California, you wouldn't be able to find it. It's it's it's it's out there and it's it's it's it's it's beautiful, it's secluded, and ⁓ it's where it all really started. And folks will be back there for the fifth anniversary. So, like, why don't you two as before we head out of here, kind of give us a picture of what people can expect and and

And how like people that might wanna get involved in these things in the future f like find out more about it.

Christopher Mitchell (47:07)
Yeah,

let me let me just let me start with it. And let me just say that I'm gonna I'm just gonna go straight out and just offer a heap of praise onto Matt. Like there is a dynamic that we've seen, which is that like Indian country gets a bunch of money for broadband and a bunch of people are like, let's go figure out how to get that money, you know. Like like I run a business and I'm gonna I'm gonna give them a little bit of benefit. I'm gonna figure out how to take that money. And like Matt and I have been committed. We've been successful in our in our life, you know, and and we're trying to figure out we've run this as a nonprofit.

We try to raise all the money from philanthropy. So we're not taking money out of Indian country and and to do this work. Matt has done most of the work. In fact, he took time out today of working outside on his own time ⁓ for the ⁓ building the central office that we're we're launching for the first time here coming up. Matt has done significant amounts of trenching with his wife Sarah, who's also put in a shocking amount of physical labor to be able to have these events ready for people. And so

Sean Gonsalves (47:58)
Mm.

Matthew Rantanen (47:59)
Yeah.

Christopher Mitchell (48:03)
The first thing to understand is that it doesn't just happen. Like it is because Matt, Sarah, ⁓ a few other people that have volunteered their time or or worked, you know, for like well less than they deserve to be able to make stuff happen. And so it is just a it is a an event that it is hard to replicate 'cause you don't find people that want to put that kind of time in always.

Sean Gonsalves (48:12)
Yeah.

Mm.

Matthew Rantanen (48:21)
That's right. ⁓ and so this time around we're gonna have like like Chris said, it is the introduction of a central office. So the so the central aspect of of an Internet network where everything starts from and then builds out from. ⁓ we are going to have

Christopher Mitchell (48:36)
I mean, let's just be clear. It used to be like in a room that you have as like a movie theater, ⁓ you know, ⁓ and now is rather than having people go into that garage, there's a half a trailer and it has, I mean, Matt Peterson who ⁓ who donated a ton of his time and effort has built we're running on we're running on direct current. It's like an actual working CO. I mean, like it's not like a pretend. It doesn't have real air conditioning, but it's a real CO in all other all other regards.

Matthew Rantanen (48:39)
Yeah. Yes.

Sean Gonsalves (48:41)
Right, right.

Right. ⁓

Matthew Rantanen (48:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And and we have a horizontal boring demo. We have blowing fiber, pulling fiber, pushing fiber demo. We're going to have another aerial demo. ⁓ you know, so we have sort of covering all the bases of of this. We're gonna have wireless setup demo, tower climbing, ⁓ a host of other things. So, you know, it's a little bit longer event because it's the five year anniversary. ⁓ we've got a little bit more people than we normally take in. We're we've got it open for a hundred.

Sean Gonsalves (49:32)
Yeah.

Matthew Rantanen (49:32)
I think we're creeping up close to it. ⁓

and you know, it'll be a very very hands-on, very sort of focused ⁓ stations where you'll get to learn different aspects of ⁓ an Internet network that is, you know, crucial to you going out to manage that yourself. And we'll also have a bunch of experts from Indian Country that have components of those things that we've built here that they can speak to ⁓ professionally.

and educate folks on and you know compare and contrast the different versions of things that have been made. We did one ⁓ you know bootstrapping it, nickel and dime it, ⁓ and it's the lower end version of a CO. And we're about to go to the Hoopa Valley tribe for our second time, them hosting a Tribal Broadband Bootcamp and see an actual like, you know, 700, 800,000 dollar facility that has, you know, been put into place. I actually got to see video of it.

two days ago and you know it's it's phenomenal. But, you know, there is a economies of scale and, you know, where you can work from and examples of, you know, where you can start and where you can end up.

Sean Gonsalves (50:36)
Yeah.

And there will be snacks. So all right, last last less last thing and we're out of here. ⁓ folks that might be interested in this who haven't been involved before, how do they how do they find out more? How do they get involved?

Christopher Mitchell (50:45)
There will be lots of sexes.

Matthew Rantanen (50:45)
That will be snacks. This is

Christopher Mitchell (50:54)
Tribal Broadbamboo Camp dot org.

Matthew Rantanen (50:54)
Tribal broadbed bootcamp dot

org.

Sean Gonsalves (50:57)
tribal broadbandbootcamp.org.

Matthew Rantanen (50:59)
Dot

org.

Christopher Mitchell (51:00)
Check

out the YouTube page. Soon you'll have a ⁓ we'll have a video up there. We have several videos up there with people's experiences. Not as many as there should be because that's something that just keeps getting neglected. But ⁓ soon there will be a five-year retrospective video that's being worked on. We've seen some of the clips from it. it's fun because it kicks from Matt in the present day to Matt five years ago when he had a black mustache.

Matthew Rantanen (51:10)
Time. Yeah.

Yeah,

right. I was a furry beast. yeah, so it's it's it's gonna be kind of cool. It's gonna show a little bit of history. ⁓ but yeah, the you know, the resources are out there. ⁓ you know, we're developing new resources every day. We're gathering up information. I mean, there's the census, there's all these different things that we're working to just kind of collaboratively make this a better space for Indian country to be able to build out their broadband networks.

Sean Gonsalves (51:47)
Well, I want to thank our listeners and our viewers for tuning in to this rogue episode of Unbuffered. ⁓ these guys, if you've got complaints, s email them and ⁓ they're they'll be at at the boot camp all week and we can get to no. ⁓ no, really, thanks for tuning in. This was a really fun episode. the Tribal Broadband Bootcamps are amazing.

Thank you both, Chris and Matt, for joining us on this episode of Unbuffered

Matthew Rantanen (52:16)
Thank you, Sean.

Christopher Mitchell (52:17)
Thank you, Sean.

Jordan Pittman (52:18)
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Unbuffered Podcast. We have transcripts for this and other episodes available at ILSR.org/podcast. While you're there, check out our other podcasts from ILSR, including Building Local Power, Local Energy Rules, and the Composting for Community Podcasts. Email us at [email protected] with your ideas for the show. Follow us on Bluesky. Our handle is @communitynets.

You can catch the latest research from all of our initiatives by subscribing to our monthly newsletter at ILSR.org While you're there, please take a moment to donate. Your support in any amount helps keep us going. Unbuffered is produced by Christopher Mitchell with editing provided by me, Jordan Pittman. Until next time, thanks for listening.